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Our Original Position Śrīla Prabhupāda and the Vaiṣṇava Siddhānta
Second Part: Other Evidences and Arguments
<< 15. Excerpts from Lectures and Conversations >>
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Fallen means when one falls down from his actual position. That is called fallen. So every conditioned soul is fallen because he has fallen down from his actual position. What is his actual position? The position is that he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the constitutional position of living entity. But he has fallen means he has given up the service of Kṛṣṇa and he has taken the service of māyā, means so many things. Somebody is serving country, society, friendship, love, and so many things. They have created service. At last dog service, cat service. But because they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa’s service, therefore they are called fallen. These fallen conditioned soul are claimed by the Vaiṣṇavas. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ. That is Vaiṣṇava’s duty.
(Lecture, Tokyo, April 20, 1972)
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Atreya Ṛṣi: In the beginning how does the spirit become ignorant, falls into ignorance?
Prabhupāda: He’s not... Just like the same question, a criminal, if you say, “In the beginning, how he became criminal,” is that very intelligent question? What do you think? A prisoner, criminal, is living in the prison house since a long time, and if you raise this question, “In the beginning, how he became a criminal,” is that very intelligent question?
Atreya Ŗṣi: No, but not everyone is prisoner.
Prabhupāda: No, this question. Anyone can become criminal, any moment. There is no question of beginning. At any moment you can begin. You are honest gentleman, very good. You are working in a nice spot. At any time, any moment, you can become a criminal and go to prison house. That is... You are prone to... As soon as you misuse your little independence, you become a criminal. That is the difficulty. You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. Daivī hy eṣa guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven’t got to trace out the history. Even if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, “How it began?” How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That’s all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun. Now I’ve come to you, make treatment. That’s all. Why should we waste our time to find out the history how it began? That beginning can be possible at any moment. As soon as we misuse our little independence, immediately the beginning is there. A criminal means one who has violated the laws of the state. That is a fact. So when that violation began, so that is not very important thing. You have violated, you are in the prison house. That’s all. That is important thing.
Ali: Yes, that’s right. My question is answered, but my confusion is still...
Prabhupāda: What is that confusion?
Ali: I’m amazed that... When someone tastes something, a nice fruit, something pleasant, he remembers, appreciates that, even in material world. How could someone see God and come from a source as powerful and lovable as that and then forget? How could he forget so easily and become so badly attached to this materialism? Why is it that we are so far? I know it’s in due course to my actions.
Prabhupāda: That tendency is here. Because we are very small fragment of spiritual identity, that tendency is there. The example is given, just like fire and spark of the fire. The fire and the spark, the spark is very small, but it is fire. And the big fire, together they look very beautiful. With the fire, when the sparks come—sput sput—so many sparks, it looks very beautiful. But the sparks sometimes fall down from the original fire. Then it is no more fire. It is fire, but it’s extinguished. The illumination is over. So we are small particles of God. God is big fire; we are small particles of God. So we are playing with the big fire very nice, but there is chance of falling down. That chance is there. The big fire does not fall. The big fire is always blazing. But the small fire, although it is possessing the same quality of fire, it may fall down. So we are small particle, very, very small, atomic portion God. Therefore we have got the tendency to be separated from the big fire, and then we begin our material body. Just like another crude example, just like a very rich man’s son, he’s enjoying life. Sometimes he thinks, “Why not independently live? Why dependent of father?” He goes out and he becomes a hippie. There are many examples. He was living very comfortably, rich man’s son, but he left the house of his father and became a hippie. There are many practical examples. Why does he do so? I have seen in Allahabad one big lawyer, very famous lawyer, Ferolal Bannerji. He had two sons. One son became a good barrister like him, and another son became a car-wala, driving a car. The reason was that this son, a car-wala, he fell in love with a low-class woman, and he preferred to remain a car-wala.
Hari-śauri: What is that?
Prabhupāda: Low-class woman. So she was living in a cottage, hut, cottage. So out of love he also preferred that “I shall live with her, and I shall drive a car.” So that is independence. He preferred. So that discrimination preference is there always. You can prefer a low-grade life out of your discretion. Nobody can check you. And by cultivation of knowledge, you can become a big man. The two tendencies are there. There is no stereotyped idea. Otherwise, he has no independence. Who was speaking of that owl? There is an animal, owl. He doesn’t like to remain in the sunlight. So that is also an animal. He is also eating, sleeping, mating, but he doesn’t like the sunlight. What can you do? So God has given him all facility to remain as an owl, in darkness. That is God’s kindness.
(Conversation, Tehran, August 10, 1976)
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Therefore we should try to give to Kṛṣṇa, not to ask. Because He has given us everything without asking. Without asking. We go to temple or churches to ask for our daily bread, but the birds and beasts, they have no churches, no temples, they do not ask. But how do they get their bread? Therefore according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there is no actually bread problem. The only problem is that we have forgotten our relationship with God. Whatever... Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido. Therefore the instruction of Bhāgavata is, “Just try to revive your lost relationship with God, or Kṛṣṇa.” That relationship is never extinguished, but sometimes it is covered. Just like a crazy boy forgets his father and mother and home, goes away. But the relationship between the son and the parents cannot be lost. As soon as the son comes back, the parents receives him very nicely. Similarly, we are all sons of the Supreme Lord. We have forgotten our father, we have forgotten our relationship, and we are loitering in this material world as helpless, and if we revive our consciousness, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that “My home is in the spiritual world. I am a foreigner in this material world...” Just like a foreigner is traveling from one place to another, similarly, I am also changing my body from one body to another, one planet to another. But there is no permanent settlement anywhere in this material world. This is our condition.
So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to be rightly situated in the original consciousness that we are all sons of God, Kṛṣṇa. We have got eternal relationship with Him and He is the richest, the most opulent. As a rich man’s son has no scarcity, no want, everything is supplied amply... Just like the Americans, they are... American or many other Western countries, the young men, they belong to a rich nation, so practically they have no want. But still why they are becoming hopeless and confused? Because this material want is not all. There is spiritual want. Unless that spiritual want is fulfilled, unless that spiritual relationship is reestablished, nobody can be happy. So in order to make us happy, Kṛṣṇa says that “Begin with little flower, little water, or little fruit, and try to offer Me."
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, lecture, Montreal, August 17, 1968)
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Because we have also come down from Vaikuṇṭha some millions and millions of years ago. Anādi karama-phale. Anādi means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of Viṣṇu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead.
(Bhagavad-gītā, lecture, London, August 6, 1973)
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Devotee: It is said that once you achieve the Godhead, once you go back to Kṛṣṇa, that you don’t fall down. But it is also said that we come from there originally. If we came from there, how did we fall if we were already there?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this example that personalities like Brahmā and Śiva, they also sometimes become victims of māyā. So our, I mean to say, potency of falling down is always there, potency. And because we are part and parcel of God and because we are now in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down. But you cannot trace out the history when you have fallen down. That is impossible. But our position is marginal. At any moment, we can fall down. That tendency is there. Therefore we are called marginal. But one... Just like it is very simple to understand. Everyone is prone to fall diseased. Is it not? Now when you are diseased, there is no necessity of finding out the history when you became diseased. You are diseased, make your treatment, that’s all. Similarly, we are in the material condition of life. Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling down, again becoming diseased. Not that because you once become cured, there is no chance of becoming diseased again. There is chance. Therefore we shall be very much careful. Yes.
(Bhagavad-gītā lecture, Los Angeles, December 19, 1968)
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Hṛdayānanda: Many times, the professors, they say that “If God, if God were actually all, all-good and all-perfect, then when He created us, we would also be all-good...”
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are contaminated. You are all-good. That’s a fact. Because you are part and parcel of God, you cannot be bad. But you are contaminated.
Hṛdayānanda: Well, they say that “Even, even if I have the potential... Even to say that I ha...”
Prabhupāda: You have got the potential. That’s it.
Hṛdayānanda: But if I say that... If I, I’m originally in the spiritual world, but even the potential to fall down is an imperfection in the creation.
Prabhupāda: No, potential does not fall down. Just like a child has got the potency to pass the M.A. examination. So he has to be educated. If you don’t educate him, he’ll remain a foolish child. So we are educating to develop that potentiality.
nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema sādhya kabhu naya
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
"They, that potentiality is eternal. God is eternal. We are eternal. Our relationship, eternal. Everything is eternal. But because we are small, minute fragments, sometimes we fall down."
Hṛdayānanda: They say, ”God should have, God should have created us so that we...”
Prabhupāda: Why you should dictate God? God has created perfectly. He has given you independence. You fall down. It is your fault. God has made you perfect, given you independence. But if you misuse your independence, you fall down. Just like government gives everyone opportunity. Why do you become criminal and go to the jail? That is your fault.
Hṛdayānanda: They say that God should have created us so that we...
Prabhupāda: Why “Should have created”? He has created already perfect. Because you are perfect, therefore you have got the independence to misuse. You are not a dead stone. That is perfection. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. You can go anywhere, sarva-ga. You can go to the Vaikuṇṭha. Yānti deva-vratā devān. You can go to the higher planets. You can go to the hell. When you go to the hell, it is your choice. God has given you all perfection. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate, everything is complete, perfect, and because you are perfect, you have got the independence. But misusing that independence, you are imperfect. Again, reviving your independence, you can become perfect, although you are imperfect now. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means raising the imperfect to the perfect platform. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other fools, they say, “We are perfect now.” In a fallen condition also, they’re thinking perfect. That is māyā. Āsurīṁ rākṣasīṁ caiva mohinīṁ prakṛtiṁ śritāḥ. Kṛṣṇa has made you perfect. There is no doubt about it. Just like some of our students. All of a sudden, they deviate, go away. So what is that? Our movement is imperfect, or he’s imperfect?
Hṛdayānanda: He’s imperfect.
Prabhupāda: He’s imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that “This is nice,” and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.
Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don’t want to surrender to God. Then they blame God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God.”God is good”; they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, ”God is good.” Still, they’re blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He’s God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He’s good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad...
Umāpati: Well, the argument is that if God is so all-powerful, why does He even let me fall?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: If God is so powerful, why does He let me fall. Why doesn’t He save me, save me from my own foolishness. Why doesn’t He...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, He’s saving you, but you don’t carry His order.
Umāpati: Yes, but it’s not recognized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I say, “Chant sixteen rounds.” If you do not do it. What can I do? That is your fault.
Satsvarūpa: If God were to force us, there’d be no love.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. Force is not good. Force is there. Force is there. The māyā is another force.
(Conversation, Los Angeles, December 6, 1973)
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Bhaktijana: How could we make a poor choice if we were part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa? How could we have chosen the material world?
Prabhupāda: Oh, because you have got independence. Don’t you see so many students come. They go away again. Yesterday Kīrtanānanda went to call Ranchora. He said, “Oh, I have forgotten this!” So you can forget. There is another student. He was also our student, Wally. “Oh, you can go immediately!” Suppose if you… “Oh, I don’t care for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society. Who calls you? You can go.” That independence is there. We can misuse.
Bhaktijana: But Kṛṣṇa will always be there if we want to go back?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Kṛṣṇa is always prepared to accept you. He’s always prepared. But because He has given us independence, we misuse it and we fall under the clutches of māyā. That is our misfortune. We create this misfortune, and we can create our good fortune. “Man is the architect of his own fortune.” So if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is to your good fortune. If you become māyā conscious, it is to your bad fortune. You are the creator.
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
Prabhupāda: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that “I am meant for Kṛṣṇa’s service,” and they are happy in Kṛṣṇa’s service.
Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Kṛṣṇaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupāda: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamijī, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. So if one is intelligent enough, if he has got actually the bitter taste of this material world, he’ll never agree. He’ll never agree. But those who have not advanced to such knowledge, oh, they think, “Oh, this material enjoyment is very nice. Let me taste it and let me do business in my sannyāsī life, and stealthily and privately, let me enjoy.” These things are going on...
Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated?
Prabhupāda: That you know. I do not know.
Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated...
Prabhupāda: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this māyā. This is called māyā. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Kṛṣṇa-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All right. Distribute prasādam. (end)
(Caitanya-caritāmṛta, lecture, San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
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Guru-kṛpā: They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Kṛṣṇa in such conditions? This is a very...
Acyutānanda: The original sin.
Sudāmā: Why we are envious...
Guru-kṛpā: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-kṛpā: How is it that...
Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.
Sudāmā: It is very hard thing to understand.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.
Acyutānanda: It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand.
Prabhupāda: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel...
Acyutānanda: But in the Gītā, it says,”Once coming there, he never returns.”
Prabhupāda: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutānanda: He can return.
Prabhupāda: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.
(Conversation, Māyāpur, February 19, 1976)
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Prabhupāda: So if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you revive your spiritual body.
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): How or why did this spiritual body become covered by the material body?
Prabhupāda: How your body is covered in a different dress when you go to the prison house? When one goes to the prison, he has to keep his dress separately and take the prison dress. So anyone who comes into this material world, he has to take a material body. This is the law. Unless you have got this material body, how you can feel pleasure in material sense enjoyment? Just like on a stage, if you are going to play, you have to take dress according to the play. Therefore this material body is compared with the dress. That is stated. Find out, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya.
(Conversation, Caracas, Venezuela, February 21, 1975)
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Devotee (3): (break) You had said on a... earlier on a morning walk, on a tape, that if one enters into the spiritual world that—you were asked that he will never have to return—and you said that if it’s a desire, he can return to the material world.
Prabhupāda: So what is your objection?
Devotee (3): I was just wondering if the spirit soul being in the spiritual world is eternally liberated, how can he return. By desire?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If he desires, he can come again. That option is always there. Just like I remain in India. I come here. And if I like, I may not come. It is my option.
(Conversation, Denver, July 3, 1975)
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Prabhupāda: After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuṇṭha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuṇṭha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down...
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Prabhupāda: Many, there are many reasons.
Devotee (4): I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.
Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?
Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Kṛṣṇa’s personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Kṛṣṇa, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment...
Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not become Kṛṣṇa?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn’t Kṛṣṇa protect us from that desire?
Prabhupāda: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupāda: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said,”If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ “Is it love? (laughter)”You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Kṛṣṇa does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver,”You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
(Bg. lecture, Honolulu, July 4, 1974)
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We want to become God. That is the Māyāvāda philosophy. That is our trouble. I am trying to imitate something which I cannot. Suppose if I want to be God, is it possible to become God? But they are trying to be. Bhramadbhiḥ puruṣaiḥ. So in this way, for this misunderstanding, he is falsely trying to have happiness through so many species of life. “Let me enter this life, let me enter that life, that life, that life, that...” In this way he falls down. He is fallen already from Vaikuṇṭha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress.
(Bhāg. lecture, Los Angeles, June 15, 1972)
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Now we are under the control of this external energy, material energy. We have become controlled, just like we become controlled by the prison authorities when we are criminals, not ordinarily. Ordinarily we are free. Those who are not within the walls of prison house, they are free. They are acting wherever they like they are going, but within the law. Similarly we have got freedom. There are living entities, their number is greater. Nitya-mukta, ever liberated. They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuṇṭha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world. And we are nitya-baddha—ever conditioned, eternally conditioned.
Eternally conditioned means... We cannot be eternally conditioned, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated. But because we wanted to imitate Kṛṣṇa, we wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, as the Māyāvādīs want to do, therefore in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa is the only enjoyer. Ekam eva aditiyam(?). Aham, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. Sarva-loka, not only of the Vaikuṇṭhalokas, planets, but these planets also. Everywhere, Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. Therefore He is the supreme enjoyer. We cannot be enjoyer. We each can simply be servitor; that is our natural position. Just like a dog, when it serves a nice master, he’s happy. Otherwise, it is street dog. Nobody cares for it. Street dog. A street dog has no position. Sometimes they are killed. Similarly, when we live under the full protection of the Supreme Lord, that is our healthy condition, that is our real life. And as soon as we give up this position to be subordinate, to be predominated by the Supreme Lord, then we are bewildered. We are thrown into this, under the control of this material nature, and according to our work we get different bodies. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies and we get one body after another.
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, lecture, Māyāpur, June 20, 1973)
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Dr. John Mize: The question that bothers me in part is then why would the soul... Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing.
Prabhupāda: That is his independence.
Dr. John Mize: Independence.
Prabhupāda: Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls.
Dr. John Mize: I’m sorry, he what?
Prabhupāda: He falls down.
Dr. John Mize: He falls.
Prabhupāda: He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me.
Dr. John Mize: I wouldn’t what?
Prabhupāda: You may not like to hear me.
Dr. John Mize: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord.
Dr. John Mize: Always engaged in...?
Prabhupāda: In the service of the Lord.
Dr. John Mize: Service of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, “Make it like this.” He will, it will do. So... But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part. So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life. Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son’s duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world.
Dr. John Mize: It is puzzling to me that one would be so foolish.
Prabhupāda: Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that yathecchasi tathā kuru. Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter. That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” Kṛṣṇa never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. He gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” And he agreed. “Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say.” The same independence. Yes.
Bahulāśva: This is in the Eighteenth Chapter.
dharmādhyakṣa:
iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ
guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa
yathecchasi tathā kuru
“Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.”
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, if you say, “Why the soul should become so foolish?” So that is misuse of independence. Intelligent father has got intelligent son, but sometimes he becomes a fool. So what is the reason? He is the part and parcel of the father. He should have become exactly like the father. But he does not become like the father. I have seen. In Allahabad was a big lawyer, barrister, Mr. Bannerjee. His eldest son was also barrister and his youngest son, on account of bad association, he became a ekala wala. Ekala means... In India there is a carriage drawn by one horse. So he liked to be an ekala. That means he fell in love, a low class of woman, and by her association, he became an ekala. There are many instances. The Ajāmila upakhyana. He was a brāhmaṇa and then he fell down very low. So this misuse of independence is always there.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our material contaminated state when we act in a foolishly or mad, then we call that tamas, or our ignorance, but in the spiritual sky when the living entity is in his pure state of consciousness, what acts... Does something act upon him to make him illusioned at that point also?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. They committed offense. They did not allow the four Kumāras to enter. That was their fault. And the Kumāras became very sorry. Then they cursed him that “You are not fit to remain in this place.” So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down because we are small. Just like small fragment of fire. Although it is fire, it is prone to be extinguished. The big fire does not extinguish. So Kṛṣṇa is the big fire, and we are part and parcel, sparks, very small. So within the fire there are sparks,”Fut, Fut!” There are so many. But if the sparks fall down, then it is extinguished...
Dr. John Mize: Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?
Prabhupāda: No, there are... Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down.
Dr. John Mize: So we’re among the 10%.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are... Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few falls down.
Dr. John Mize: Does Kṛṣṇa know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Kṛṣṇa may know because He is omniscient.
Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?
Prabhupāda: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say,”Where is the criminal? You are constructing...” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency.
Dr. John Mize: The origin of that tendency is...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. John Mize: From where does that tendency come?
Prabhupāda: Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yathecchasi tathā kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.”
Jayatīrtha: Because Kṛṣṇa is independent, therefore the part and parcels...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Part and parcel must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel means... Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The, all the chemical composition is there in the drop. So Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. So we living entities we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute quantity.
(Conversation, Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
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Devotee: When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Kṛṣṇa, we have a perfect relationship with Kṛṣṇa, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving...
Prabhupāda: Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material quality...
(Bhagavad-gītā, lecture, Melbourne, June 25, 1974)
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Devotee (1): In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it says that Kṛṣṇa did not want us to come to this material world. If Kṛṣṇa did not want us to come, why are we here?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You forced Kṛṣṇa to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are son of God—God has got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. Beginning from Lord Brahmā down to the worms in the stool, gradually, according to your work, according to your desire, you manufacture your different types of body and enjoy and suffer. That’s all. That is explained. Prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. And as soon as you, entangled in different types of punishment, not enjoyment but punishment.
You will find in this practical experience. Suppose a boy is very rich man’s son. But still, he thinks “Why shall I live under the rules and regulations of my father? Let me go out. I shall enjoy life freely.” Freely, what freedom? You are already rich man’s son. You can enjoy the property of your very, very rich powerful father, and what independence you will enjoy? This is criminality. This is criminality. We are sons of God, part and parcels of God, and God means almighty. So we have got almighty father, and leaving His place, I have come to this material world to enjoy independently. That is criminality. And we are suffering. That is explained here: prakṛti-stha, “being placed in this material world,” puruṣa, bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān, “He is enjoying, but enjoying the quality of the modes of material nature.
(Bhagavad-gītā, lecture, Melbourne, June 27, 1974)
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Prabhupāda: “I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a śūdra. I am not a brahmacārī, I am not a gṛhastha, I am not a vānaprastha...” Because our Vedic civilization is based on varṇa and āśrama. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied all these things: “I do not belong to any one of these.” Then what is Your position? Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: “I am eternally servant of the maintainer of the gopīs.” That means Kṛṣṇa. And He preached: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa. That is our identification. We are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the servants who have rebelled against Kṛṣṇa, they have come to this material world. Therefore, to reclaim these servants, Kṛṣṇa comes.
(Bhagavad-gītā, lecture, Bombay, March 21, 1974)
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Devotee (2): If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? Like, if an entity is fortunate enough to revive his natural constitutional position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling...
Prabhupāda: How your Nixon is dragged down? How your President Nixon is dragged down? He was in the exalted post, and why he was dragged down?
Devotee (3): They dragged him down.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forced to come down. Why?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He broke the rules.
Prabhupāda: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses—he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that “Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?” you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.
kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare
pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
"As soon as one forgets the service of the Lord and he wants to become himself Lord, immediately māyā will capture. This māyā means this material world.
(Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975)
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Paramahaṁsa: But ultimately if we come to Kṛṣṇa, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagāi, and... the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupāda: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.
Paramahaṁsa: If we want.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try,”Oh, this material world is very nice, “Yes,” Kṛṣṇa says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore.
(Conversation, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973)
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The whole thing is sense gratification. Here, anyone who has come... Indriyārtha artha-vādinaḥ. Their only aim is sense gratification. That’s all. Anyone. Beginning from Brahmā down to the ant. Material life means a desire for sense gratification. They’re fallen because they wanted to gratify their senses. They cannot remain in Vaikuṇṭha world. In the Vaikuṇṭha world, only the one, the Supreme Lord, His senses should be satisfied not anyone’s else. That is called bhakti.
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. lecture, Los Angeles, May 20, 1972)
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But if you remain eternally in the instruction... And if you fall from the instruction, how you can remain eternal? You have to stay on the platform. Then eternally you are safe. If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuṇṭha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, “Go back to home, back to Godhead.” So everything is... There is process. If you follow the process, then you go back. If you fall down, that is our fault. Therefore the life is meant for tapasya, that Ŗṣabhadeva’s instruction, that our life should not be wasted like dogs and hogs and pigs. It should be utilized for tapasya, for understanding our position. Tapo putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva. This is the aim of life. We have to purify our existence. At the present moment our existence is impurified. Therefore we are subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. And as soon as we purify ourself, then we are not subjected to these four material laws. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, lecture, Melbourne, May 22, 1975)
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So here the same thing, na kuryāt karhicit sākhyam. To the subordinate never make compromise. We must keep always under control. Of course... Similarly, our mind... The mind is the cause of our material existence, mano-dharma. Why we are in this material world? On account of this change of mind. Our position is jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa. We are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, but sometimes the servant thinks, “Why shall I remain a servant? Let me become master.” That is natural. A master is always in comfortable situation. Sometimes the servant becomes envious: “Oh, why this man should always remain in comfortable position and we shall serve? Why not we become also in comfortable position? Let me eat as he eats,” or “Let me sleep now.” These are so-called comforts. So they want to imitate. When the living being imitates the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he falls down. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare, pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. As soon as he forgets his position—he wants to imitate—that is the beginning of māyā, falldown. You should be very careful.
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, lecture, Vṛndāvana, November 25, 1976)
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Mānadena. We should be always ready to offer respect to all, not only devotees, but everyone. Everyone. Because every living entity is originally a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But circumstantially, being covered by the coat of māyā, he’s playing like demon. But his original nature is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa. Everyone is eternally servant of Kṛṣṇa. But being influenced by māyā, when he gets this body, given by māyā... Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, when he’s conducted by the three guṇas of māyā, he thinks himself otherwise. He thinks himself independent of Kṛṣṇa. But actually, nobody is independent of Kṛṣṇa. I’ve given this example that the prisoners, the criminals in the jail, they go to jail thinking themselves to be independent of the state laws, outlaws. A criminal thinks, “I don’t care for the state laws.” But after all, for his activities, criminal activities, he’s put into the jail. So at that time he’s forced to obey the state laws. Outside the state laws, he’s disobeyed. But within the prison, he’s forced by punishment. Similarly, those who are defying the authorities of the Supreme Lord, they are all criminals, and they are being punished by Durgādevī. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā.
(NoD. lecture, Vṛndāvana, October 23, 1972)
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Karandhara: “Translation: Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”
Prabhupāda: So, purport?
Karandhara: “Purport: The question of Mahārāja Parīkṣit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”
Prabhupāda: It is a very important question. Parīkṣit Mahārāja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Kṛṣṇa, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with Kṛṣṇa became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.
Karandhara: “Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”
Prabhupāda: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a māyā, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason. He is thinking, “I am this body.” Actually the body has no connection with me. That is experienced, that the body has no connection with the soul. The body is changing, dying. But I am the same. The same example, the moon: The cloud is passing over in different way. The moon is far away from the cloud, and it has nothing to do with the cloud, but it appears the moon is moving... Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan. Except ātma-māyā, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa. This illusory energy develops when we forget Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Kṛṣṇa and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving us...
Just like when you play some part in a drama, if you feel that “I am king,” then you can talk very nicely. And if you feel that “I am Karandhara,” then you cannot play nicely king. Is it not? Feeling must be there. If you are playing the part of a king, then you must have the same courage and belief that “I am king.” You have to forget that you are Karandhara. Then your part will be very nicely played. It will be appreciated. But if you think simultaneously that”I am Karandhara. I am taking, playing the part of the king,” then you cannot play. So because we wanted to play the part of Kṛṣṇa, enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is giving us chance that “You feel like Me.”— “I am king. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God.” (laughter) All these rascals, those who are feeling like that, “I am master. I am king. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God,” they are all simply in that feeling only. That’s all. And this feeling is created by Kṛṣṇa: “All right. You want to play the part of a king. I shall train you in such a way...”
...Artha sambandhaḥ. Svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. The very exact example is given, svapna-draṣṭuḥ. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is,”Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger...
...So the answer is, when somebody asks you that “When one has become in contact with this material nature?” He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Kṛṣṇa has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Kṛṣṇa, so Kṛṣṇa has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’”...
...So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Kṛṣṇa’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Kṛṣṇa conscious. “Oh, Kṛṣṇa is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly...
...This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no... Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by Vyāsadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called śāstra. In two lines.
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, lecture, Tokyo, April 20, 1972)
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